tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post724360632826989452..comments2023-09-10T16:35:32.651+01:00Comments on Captain Ranty-Lawful Rebel: Popey Porny Post PulledCaptain Rantyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07839241144954596066noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-24396968276210414732010-12-30T17:42:49.894+00:002010-12-30T17:42:49.894+00:00Hi CR,
I promise you, its so worth a watch. It di...Hi CR,<br /><br />I promise you, its so worth a watch. It didn't feel like 3 hours when I watched it this morning.Steven UKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-85975272592349124212010-12-30T14:58:23.670+00:002010-12-30T14:58:23.670+00:00Thanks Steven.
I have begun my three hour session...Thanks Steven.<br /><br />I have begun my three hour session with these videos...<br /><br />CR.Captain Rantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07839241144954596066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-36623021984056466382010-12-30T13:12:56.311+00:002010-12-30T13:12:56.311+00:00Take a look at this incredible film
Corporation Na...Take a look at this incredible film<br />Corporation Nation <br /><br />http://tiny.cc/tcag5<br /><br />Its a long watch but well worth it.Steven UKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-14857280412034113422010-12-30T09:48:14.951+00:002010-12-30T09:48:14.951+00:00Augustine, thanks. I've enjoyed it too. You...Augustine, thanks. I've enjoyed it too. You're a gentleman and a scholar. <br /> <br />You'll easily guess the author I'd recommend. I think I got some backlash from your irritation at Dawkins' insufferable arrogance! He'd irritate me too, but I forgive him cos he obligingly agrees with me.<br /><br />Thanks also to our host, CR. And anyone who read this far. Cue applause from the audience? Was anyone listening?Zaphodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-44748244174902942722010-12-30T09:26:26.821+00:002010-12-30T09:26:26.821+00:00CR, I felt your original posting was right on the ...CR, I felt your original posting was right on the money. It's important in a free society to be able to say things which may very well shock & offend without causing actual harm. It's vitally important to remember that your "rantings" are nothing and nowhere as compared to the evil actions which prompted your reason/justification for the rant!<br />Kind regards and Happy New Year, and just be assured that your continued postings ARE making a difference. "Who Dares Wins"reiverdavenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-8552246130724251482010-12-30T01:28:14.231+00:002010-12-30T01:28:14.231+00:00Zaphod,
Indeed, there is a third way.
I am sorr...Zaphod,<br /><br />Indeed, there is a third way. <br /><br />I am sorry if it got bit aggressive. It wasn't my intention. I merely wanted to be provocative. I probably did start it. For my part, no offence was taken.<br /><br />I do consider the decline in fertility a very bad thing, mostly for secular and economic reasons. But that is a debate for another forum. <br /><br />Yes, the God of Abraham is problematic, and Jesus will forgive you. <br /><br />Here seems a natural point to finish an interesting debate that I enjoyed enormously (for which I thank you).<br /><br />Let me leave you with three somewhat implausible book recommendations. <br /><br />The first is by an agnostic Jewish scientist called David Berlinski. It is called "The Devil's Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific pretensions". <br /><br />The second book is called "the Cube and the Cathedral" by George Weigel (If nothing else, it will make you think hard about the future of Europe).<br /><br />The last recommendation is a book written by the Holy Father, Pope Benedict. It is called "In the Beginning..". <br /><br />In many ways, it is a shocking book, with some extraordinary insights into the human condition. It also deals directly with the Christian conception of the creation. Of the three, I would recommend this one the strongest.<br /><br />I will keep you in my prayers.Augustinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-73812344958246693172010-12-30T00:07:28.557+00:002010-12-30T00:07:28.557+00:00Augustine,
Actually, there's a third way. Both...Augustine,<br />Actually, there's a third way. Both of us wrong? There could be an afterlife, and a god, but he's not yours. In which case, you may be in more trouble than me. There may currently be a new shepherd wandering the desert, who will be the big prophet in another 5000 years. I'll be okay, because I haven't encountered the new prophet's message yet.<br /><br />I'll be frank. I don't approve of Abraham's god. Jesus seems okay, he'd forgive me. This is not willful misunderstanding. I may misunderstand, but why wilfully? "Trying to believe" would be willful misunderstanding! We are all capable of believing things fervently, without reason. I try to avoid it. I'm not completely successful, of course.<br /><br />The decline in fertility? You consider this a bad thing? It is an outcome that reflects the availability of choice. There is no danger of our extinction. Something has to limit the population. We used to have famine, war and pestilence.<br /><br />A god may exist. It is so unlikely, that I don't feel the need to insure against it beyond following my own sense of right and wrong. I was doing that anyway.<br /><br />This has all got a bit aggressive. I think you started it, I expect you think that I did. Offence was not originally intended.<br /><br />Peace, Philosopher. :-)Zaphodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-26163628067982668482010-12-29T23:15:32.761+00:002010-12-29T23:15:32.761+00:00Zaphod,
This debate between us can only go one of...Zaphod,<br /><br />This debate between us can only go one of two ways. If you are right and I am wrong, then all that awaits both of us is oblivion. <br /><br />If I am right and you are wrong, then the consequences for both of us are very serious indeed. If only for the balance of probabilities and expected outcomes, you should at least try to believe.<br /><br />Let me say, in the nicest possible way, that you have some way to go before you understand the message of Christianity. In the bible, God offers us convenant that gives us the opportunity of divine reconciliation. <br /><br />The bible recounts examples of vengence and ethnic cleansing, but that is not its message. Nevertheless, You can chose to take that message if you like. After all, you have free will. You can do what you like. However, what will it profit you to willfully misunderstand the will of God?<br /><br />As for the recruitment strategy of the Church, it has no technological monopoly. Atheists could practice it also. <br /><br />Perhaps, religion has an evolutionary dimension. For a society to truly prosper and strive, it needs a justification that reaches beyond the material. <br /><br />In this regard, I am deeply struck by the correlation between religious belief and fertility. As European societies turn their back on the religion of their ancestors, the birth rate has crashed to the point whether it is doubtful that it generate sufficient can replace its own population. It is an outcome that reeks of despair and hopelessness. <br /><br />As for memes, I think I understand this word and all its pretensions. Sorry, but I prefer plainer language and have no use for it.<br /><br />As for divine hand of God and religious babble. I will concede the possibility. However, if you believe in God, one is drawn inevitably to the idea of a personal relationship with him. <br /><br />If I may return to my original comment, I can accept the possibility that God might not exist. However, can you accept the alternative proposition, that he might exist?Augustinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-43057529322624146202010-12-29T22:42:57.048+00:002010-12-29T22:42:57.048+00:00"Meme" is a very useful concept, much br..."Meme" is a very useful concept, much broader than books or education. It is only useful if the other understands it, though.<br /><br />Catholicism does indeed grow. They are forbidden practical birth control, their many children are implanted with guilt, and the regular dose of antidote is only available from the priest. A highly effective "strategy", if you'd prefer a pseudomilitary term. I've never underestimated it. You can call it a protection racket, if you like. <br /><br />The "divine hand at work" is an excellent answer to absolutely everything. Religiobabble?<br /><br />The god of that simple shepherd was offering vengeance, racism, misogyny, ethnic cleansing, and many other unpleasant attributes. It's a popular message when times are hard. It's been watered down in the C of E, fortunately.Zaphodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-11281687367747798772010-12-29T21:16:03.461+00:002010-12-29T21:16:03.461+00:00Zaphod,
I always smile when I hear the word meme....Zaphod,<br /><br />I always smile when I hear the word meme. It is as if evolutionary psychologists have discovered that the sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening and then go on to tell us that they discovered something important.<br /><br />The idea of a meme is a pseudoscientific way of saying that generations communicate with each other. In my village we call this education. It is usually undertaken with the help of books and other similar material. Economists call it technological diffusion and I'm sure other social scientists have similar clever names.<br /><br />As for Catholicism not attracting people, I'm afraid to say that the numbers are not with you on that one. The Catholic Church continues to grow, but absolutely and relatively. It has never had any trouble attracting people and I doubt it ever will. You must remember that it is the oldest continuous institution in the world. It survived both the Roman and Nazi persecutions and continues to survive even in the most difficult circumstances. <br /><br />So what about catholic guilt? It is true that Christianity argues that there is a divinely inspired moral order to the universe. It also argues that human beings do bad things, which should provoke a feeling of guilt. However, it also offers the opportunity of reconciliation through forgiveness. In fact, this provides a powerful antidote to the aforementioned feeling of guilt. It offers us the opportunity to leave the past behind and to start again. I wouldn't underestimate the power of this idea. You can call it a meme if you like.<br /><br />Perhaps I misled you slightly. I think the universe is infinitely large. I don't think it is arbitrary.<br /><br />"If religious truth is affected by majority opinion, how did Abraham's get started when it was a minority."<br /><br />That is a very good question. My own answer is that the divine hand is at work. It is extraordinary that the simple shepherd trailing around the desert in the Middle East 5000 years ago could be the original prophet of three of the world's greatest religions. It is an idea to absurd to be explained by simple probabilities, memes, or evolutionary psychobabble.Augustinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-73921666076164572002010-12-29T21:03:03.381+00:002010-12-29T21:03:03.381+00:00CR
Being a man o ra Temple, BZ conviction is the ...CR<br /><br />Being a man o ra Temple, BZ conviction is the courage we all should have and employ as necessary.<br /><br />ps. C u on the ither side ;)<br /><br />CDCrazyDaisyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17649222063383489990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-17622636039994435032010-12-29T20:58:53.842+00:002010-12-29T20:58:53.842+00:00Zaphod
The funny thing about the Judaeo-Christian...Zaphod<br /><br />The funny thing about the Judaeo-Christian creation story is that it contains two accounts of creation and not one. The first one, contains eight "divine" commands each been described as having occurred on a sequence of six "days". The second account refers to the creation of Adam and Eve, the subsequent fall, and the expulsion from the garden of eve. The two stories are linked by a key phrase "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created."<br /><br />Most secular difficulties with the creation account concerns time. People get terribly hung up on the word "day". However, we must not forget that the creation story originates in early Hebrew, where the word day can also mean age. I remember a rabbi telling a story about how a child challenged him to explain how God made the world in six days. He replied "how long is a divine day?"<br /><br />The real purpose of the book of Genesis is to provide an ageless account of creation is understandable across all cultures. It has two key messages. First, that God created the universe and it isn't too specific on how he did it. Second, it describes man's relationship with God, which is one of separation. Theologians have always understood that these two creation accounts are essentially two messages and should be understood as such.<br /><br />Personally, I have no difficulty in reconciling evolution with this account of creation. The two accounts refer to the purpose of creation. Evolution merely explains the mechanism.Augustinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-22301380685633987012010-12-29T19:49:42.239+00:002010-12-29T19:49:42.239+00:00Evolution, for me, is a "revelation" tha...Evolution, for me, is a "revelation" that clears a lot of fog. A beautiful concept, which only meets dogged resistance because it undermines precious creation myths. It's biochemistry, and physics, and probability, and epidemiology, and many other ologies.<br /><br />Evo Psch, (Sociobiology)is that rarity, a soft science with real bite. Behaviours are partially heritable. It flows beautifully from there. Not as easy to measure as morphology, but my understanding of human nature has blossomed since I discovered it. Like quantum theory, it's a bit of a metaphor but gets results better than anything else.<br /><br />If religious truth is affected by majority opinion, how did Abraham's get started when it was a minority?<br /><br />Catholicism doesn't attract people. It indoctrinates them with guilt at birth, and demands multiple offspring. An excellent evolutionary psych strategy. I understand why it thrives, but that doesn't make it true. It's just a successful meme. Like rock n roll.<br /><br />Do you think the cosmos is small? It's a helluva lot bigger than gods need it to be.<br /><br />It's all clear to you, because you accept the faith. It's pretty clear to me, because I don't. I guess neither of us is doing much harm. But others are. On both sides.Zaphodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-58075253736886586312010-12-29T18:59:57.154+00:002010-12-29T18:59:57.154+00:00Caractacus,
There is no harm in good natured and ...Caractacus,<br /><br />There is no harm in good natured and thoughtful debate.<br /><br />None will receive an adequate answer this side of the grave.Augustinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-62799100347638188092010-12-29T18:59:35.982+00:002010-12-29T18:59:35.982+00:00Caractacus,
There is no harm in good natured and ...Caractacus,<br /><br />There is no harm in good natured and thoughtful debate.<br /><br />None will receive an adequate answer this side of the grave.Augustinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-30234817803971682652010-12-29T18:50:47.850+00:002010-12-29T18:50:47.850+00:00I agree with everyone.I agree with everyone.Augustinian Modalistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-42396772537127670732010-12-29T18:49:00.982+00:002010-12-29T18:49:00.982+00:00Oh Captain - you've done it now...!
We are no...Oh Captain - you've done it now...!<br /><br />We are none of us persuaded by the arguments of others and are merely arguing about whether to open our eggs at the little end or the big end.<br /><br />Adjudication please.Caratacusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-76580432792041197912010-12-29T18:45:58.744+00:002010-12-29T18:45:58.744+00:00Zaphod
Evolution,if it is anything at all, is a d...Zaphod<br /><br />Evolution,if it is anything at all, is a description of a biochemical process. Evolutionary psychology is a metaphor that uses this process as an analogy for social behavior. <br /><br />The further you delve into evolutionary psychology, the more problematic and unscientific it becomes. It is dangerously reductive. In its essence it suggests that human beings are akin to automatons who make rational decisions based on payoffs. <br /><br />Personally, I would love someone to explain from an evolutionary psychology perspective the existence and fall of the Soviet Union and central planning, or the creation of a credit default swap in financial markets. The evolutionary metaphor is simply not applicable in these cases in my view.<br /><br />Turning to your point about multiple gods, Catholic philosophy makes a distinction between natural theology and revealed theology. A person with no knowledge of Christianity can still arrive at understanding of God. Someone who believes in multiple gods can still have some understanding of the divine. <br /><br />Notwithstanding this qualification, the majority of people on earth believe in the same God - the God of Abraham. <br /><br />In fact, Christianity and Catholicism especially is particularly adept at reconciling traditional beliefs with its own theological structures. This distinction also explains why the Catholic Church has always had a soft spot for Greek philosophers.<br /><br />Yes I agree; religion is for the masses. It is also for the elite. One of the thing that impresses me the most about Catholicism is its capacity to attract such a diverse people. It is a universal Church comprising of 1.2 billion people. There are no intellectual qualifications required to become a member. It has mentally disabled believers as well as Nobel prizewinners. It is an institution with an unsurpassed intellectual tradition and yet its basic message is remarkably straightforward and easy to understand. <br /><br />By the way, the Catholic Church is the only religious institution I know that has a scientific academy. One of its teachings, which goes back to the early Church Fathers, is that to reject reason is to reject God. Although you wouldn't know it from reading the Guardian, the Church has a profound and deeply rooted commitment to education and science. It also believes that science should be firmly rooted within a moral framework.<br /><br />Why are we here? I'm not totally sure. However, the best answer I received was from the Catholic Church. Personally, I find it hard to believe that we live in an arbitrarily large cosmos. Moreover, I sense that there is a moral order to this universe that is divinely inspired.<br /><br />But that is just me, you must find your own answers.Augustinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-59484222095301803722010-12-29T18:07:11.424+00:002010-12-29T18:07:11.424+00:00Okay, I take your point. God may or may not exist,...Okay, I take your point. God may or may not exist, but religion certainly does. <br /><br />Both Game theory and Evolutionary Psychology are very new disciplines, and I'm impressed by their achievements. (Though you clearly know more than I do.)<br /><br />Gravity did a good job of sticking things down before we had it sussed. <br /><br />I didn't suggest that E.P.has altruism nailed yet, but that Religion's explanation creates much more mystery than it solves.<br /><br />I assumed that finance was more evolutionary than designed. I could be wrong.<br /><br />Religion is for the masses. It does not pose questions, it neutralises them. That is its promise.<br /><br />Why are we here? It's inevitable. In an arbitrarily large cosmos, anything not forbidden is mandatory. It really is that simple. :-) <br /><br />I'm impressed by your breadth of knowledge, dude! I can only quarrel with your analysis.<br /><br />Existence of various gods? It's not open to reason or facts, of course. Some feel their gods inside. (And deny those of others.) I emphatically don't have one, and I feel no need.Zaphodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-75847380648632183802010-12-29T17:09:06.314+00:002010-12-29T17:09:06.314+00:00Zaphod,
Actually, between 400-1700 AD the vast ma...Zaphod,<br /><br />Actually, between 400-1700 AD the vast majority of art was directly or indirectly patronized by the Church. There were a few Kingly portraits, but Church is where you see the real achievements. A trip to the Vatican and its library will convince you of that point.<br /><br />"Religion, (like trade unions), may have achieved important things in history. That however, neither causes nor requires a god to exist."<br /><br />True - but your initial point was about history and religion. It was not about the existence of God.<br /><br />"The existence of conscience and altruism, in man and animal, is more satisfactorily explained by evolutionary psychology. Occam's razor."<br /><br />Here I must take exception. For what it is worth, I did my PhD in cooperative and non-cooperative game theory. I am horrified and appalled by the misuse of game theory in evolutionary psychology. <br /><br />Game theory (as any theorist will confirm) has a huge problem of multiple equilibria. Another problem is backward induction in finite repeated games, which leads to the breakdown of cooperative outcomes. Life as we all know is a finite game. <br /><br />Try, for example, to apply evolutionary concepts to explaining to the psychology of financial markets. Lets see how far we can get (ie nowhere). Financial markets are an example, par excellance, of intelligent design and the existence of the omnipotent supervisor (the central bank or financial supervisor).<br /><br />But I digress......<br /><br />Brainwashing and religion - isn't that an oxymoron? Religion poses the most difficult question of all - why are we here? Modern philosphical thought bends over backward to avoid it.Augustinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-56776293453029260432010-12-29T16:36:28.291+00:002010-12-29T16:36:28.291+00:00Augustine,
The rich and powerful were always patro...Augustine,<br />The rich and powerful were always patrons of art. They bought it. Religions and Kings bought, (or enslaved) a lot of talent, and taxed the commoners to pay for it. So be it. By itself, their bought art fails to justify their continuing existence.<br /><br />Maybe our rights come from the fact that we each had a pitchfork, rather than a soul. I'm not an expert though.<br /><br />Religion, (like trade unions), may have achieved important things in history. That however, neither causes nor requires a god to exist.<br /><br />The existence of conscience and altruism, in man and animal, is more satisfactorily explained by evolutionary psychology. Occam's razor.<br /><br />Free will and mortality certainly do not point to the existence of god. They suggest the opposite. <br /><br />I appreciate that some very good people have deep religious convictions. I strongly object to the attempt to brainwash me in childhood though. I'm angry about that.Zaphodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-30180432245631447752010-12-29T15:29:18.970+00:002010-12-29T15:29:18.970+00:00CR - it takes a brave man to back down & admit...CR - it takes a brave man to back down & admit to it. However, I think the main points you made in your blog about Benny & the Jetz were things that needed to be said & were things that people of all religions and none need to think about. Protecting 'the Church' at the expense of abused kiddies is not a very good moral standpoint for either Benny or his apologists. I look forward to reading your Benny & the Jetz Mark 2.ermnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-10404698897127992342010-12-29T15:26:46.717+00:002010-12-29T15:26:46.717+00:00NewsboyCap
"I don't need a religion to ...NewsboyCap<br /><br /><br />"I don't need a religion to tell me what's right or wrong."<br /><br />That is exactly right. <br /><br />You have an innate conscience. However, you need to take the next step and asked the question why do you have this conscience. <br /><br />Christians believe that one's conscience is the voice of God whispering in our head. We have a natural inclination towards sin, yet at the same time we have a moral compass. <br /><br />Free will, conscience, and mortality -this is the very essence of being a human. It does in a strange way point to the existence of God. <br /><br />Religion is simply a final step. It is about the revelation of God's will.Augustinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-57904349678821298512010-12-29T15:21:36.202+00:002010-12-29T15:21:36.202+00:00No worries Newsboycap, as Jesus said:
"In my...No worries Newsboycap, as Jesus said:<br /><br />"In my Father's house are many mansions".<br /><br />We can probably fit you in with the Quakers :)Trooper Thompsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01505221473081871071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3271194216217582823.post-82208889585692228482010-12-29T15:19:45.378+00:002010-12-29T15:19:45.378+00:00Zaphod
"Religions have a bad history".
...Zaphod<br /><br />"Religions have a bad history".<br /><br />That is a common perception, but I wonder if it stands up to serious scrutiny. Take, for example, the history of music. What would Western music sound like without the contribution of Christianity? it was the monks of France and Germany who in the dark ages developed a system for transcribing musical notes. This created the basis for transferring musical knowledge through generations. Without it, music simply couldn't have developed any sophistication. If you need proof of this take a look at music produced elsewhere in the world.<br /><br />How about architecture? The Cathedral were central to the development of modern building techniques. Without the desire to create more beautiful buildings to honour God, the design and craftsmanship that characterised mediaeval churches would not have been developed. Instead, we would have had to rely upon the secular necessity of building fortifications.<br /><br />How about law? Modern Western legal traditions owe a little to the Romans, but it was the Roman Catholic church that developed the idea of a systematic construction of a body of law, based on evidence and not upon trial by ordeal, which was the prevailing pre-Christian legal tradition.<br /><br />What about human rights? The idea that each human is endowed with a unique soul is a very basis of the idea that we have rights. In pre-Christian thought, this idea simply doesn't exist.<br /><br />How about international relations? The idea is rooted in mediaeval political thought. The idea that two nations could have a contract between each other is a Christian idea.<br /><br />I could go on. However, I would encourage you to take a closer look at your own cultural traditions and assess honestly contribution of Christianity. <br /><br />You may not believe in God, that is your choice, but I suspect that many of the things you believe in have their roots in Christianity.Augustinenoreply@blogger.com